13 replies to this topic

[Mike Frezon]

Hey gang!

While I haven't yet picked up my copy of Pinocchio on Blu-ray, it has been reported that one of Jiminy's lines in Give a Little Whistle is missing.

As Jiminy is counseling Pinocchio to "let his conscience be his guide" and "give a little whistle"...the two characters do a bit of a call-and-answer section:

Jiminy: And when your whistle's weak.....YELL!

Pinocchio: Jiminy Cricket!

Jiminy: Right!

Well, the response "Right!" by Jiminy is missing--both from the new mix for the Blu-ray release and from the original mono mix also included on the disc.

I was wondering if Randy could give us some insight into what's going on.

===================

I remember having a discussion with Randy on these boards a looooooong time ago on the subject of Little Wooden Head and Geppetto's missing vocal tracks on the Pinocchio OST. But a search of the boards (cool new format, BTW ) did not yield that discussion.

[DisneyChris]

I know that the "original" original Sountrack Album of Pinocchio, released 50 or more years ago, did not have Jiminy saying "Right" either. And oddly, there is an added whistle at one point, where in the movie version, there is no whistle at all. The missing whistle is part of a visual gag relating to a Jiminy Crickett's hat. He whistles into his hat and holds his hand over it, then a few seconds later, at the appropriate musical moment, he releases his saved whistle back out of his hat. Then Pinocchio tries to immitate this trick, but it doesn't work for him. I suppose, this missing whistle would not make sense without the visual to go along with it, so they added a whistle where it originaly did not exsist. I wonder if this whistle was specailly recorded just for this purpose, or if was borrowed from some other point in the movie or the song. Perhaps Randy knows this.

Edited by DisneyChris, 12 March 2009 - 07:02 PM.

[Mike Frezon]

There is another piece of Jiminy's dialogue missing from the end of the same song. When Jiminy says "Look out Pinoke!", as Pinocchio falls over, there is...nothing.

[Randy Thornton]

Hey Mike!

Welcome Back!

Unfortunately, I can be of little help to both questions.

First, I'm not involved with the Home Entertainment releases. I sometimes help in research, by finding and restoring the song demos and such. Recently, in the case of Sleeping Beauty, it was the elements I found to build the soundtrack album (in 1996) that prompted the studio to rebuild the audio for the new Blu-Ray. If I'm involved at all, it's usually in the historic element side of thing. I don't know what was done on Pinocchio.

Second, the Pinocchio Soundtrack is the only Classic Soundtrack (aside from Fantasia) that I did not produce. I did assist in some research to help Michael Leon (the producer) find some elements and offer advice. But what I can tell you is similar to the situations in all of my own soundtrack restoration projects as well — most of the original separated elements no longer exist.

In the 1950's there was a movement within the film industry to get rid of all the nitrate based film stock (it could spontaneously combust). When they began what I refer to as: "The Great Purge", it was decided to only transfer "important" elements to the new Safety Film. In most cases, the separated elements — the vocals, the effects, the dialog, and the music elements were destroyed. They felt that the only elements necessary to save were the Composite (complete mix) for new prints over the years, and the M&E (the music and effects mix without vocal or dialog) for use in dubbing the films into other languages. They never thought that anyone would ever go back and remix a film — it was unheard of at the time, and why waste the funds.

Fortunately, they weren't completely thorough. Some elements survived — maybe bits and pieces, and sometimes complete songs. Every single soundtrack I've restored (except for Poppins and Jungle Book), were cobbled together from whatever elements I could find.

In the case of Pinocchio, I know that Michael and I found the Music Only elements. There were in mis-marked cans, and we assume that it was because of this that they survived The Great Purge. However, no vocals could be found. So we turned to the WDL record master that Tutti Camarata produced in the 1950s. It turns out that Tutti started producing the WDL soundtrack series just before the purge, so he had access to those long lost separated elements. Michael used that master as the source for the songs. It may have been when Tutti originally created those album tracks, when those lines went missing. That's just a guess, but it seems likely.

Incredibly, as we were going through those mis-marked Pinocchio cans, we came across a treasure — in the very last can were several small reels of film. They turned out to be the separated music only, vocal, and chorus tracks for "When You Wish Upon a Star". And if the fates conspired to only allow us to rebuild and restore one song in Pinocchio — I'm exceeding grateful that was the song!

I know, a lot of words just to say "I don't know", but there ya are.

Randy

[Mike Frezon]

Hey! How did you get a "Join Date" that's one day before mine?!?

Randy: thanks for taking the time for such a thoughtful answer. I'd say your guess is as good as we're going to get for awhile. I hope you don't mind, but I posted your response over at the Home Theater Forum where we have been discussing the merits of the new Pinocchio release. There have been--as you might suspect--numerous questions about the missing dialogue.

I am guessing that "long ago" dialogue we head about Geppetto's vocal track (on Little Wooden Head) on the Pinocchio OST (and why it was present on that 1990 RCA release) is lost to the various software changes this forum has seen over the years.

I will always be amazed and grateful that you have been available as a resource on this board over the years.

I returned a few months ago to post a story about the use of some Disney music at my daughter's wedding which appeared in Guideposts magazine. The MM link is HERE.

The link to the Guideposts story itself is HERE.

My kids grew up on Disney music. My daughter, in particular, was raised during the second golden age of Disney musicals (having been born in 1986. Our trips to WDW and my obsession with theme park music only served to solidify the "magical music of the mouse" in our lives.

This note provides me an opportunity to thank you, directly, for your part in helping to provide much of that enjoyment over the years. Thank you.

I see (with great interest) this new World Fair release you've got coming up. I attended the '64 World's Fair (as a 5-year-old). Are there other theme park releases from recent years I should be seeking out? Wasn't there something big for DL's big anniversary?

[superbu]

DisneyChris, on Mar 13 2009, 12:00 AM, said:

I know that the "original" original Sountrack Album of Pinocchio, released 50 or more years ago, did not have Jiminy saying "Right" either.

Mm, I don't think that's correct. I own the 1990 RCA CD reissue, which says it is taken from the original 1940 78rpm shellac sources, and Jiminy's line "Right!" is present there. It does not appear that Disney had anything to do with this CD reissue at all... it was done by BMG/RCA, who released the original soundtrack album in 1940.

[DisneyChris]

superbu, on Mar 15 2009, 10:36 AM, said:

Mm, I don't think that's correct. I own the 1990 RCA CD reissue, which says it is taken from the original 1940 78rpm shellac sources, and Jiminy's line "Right!" is present there. It does not appear that Disney had anything to do with this CD reissue at all... it was done by BMG/RCA, who released the original soundtrack album in 1940.

It is correct. I have a reissue on cassette of the original sountrack album originally produced in the 1950s and the word is ommited.

[David S.]

Both lines are missing from the US standard definition Platinum DVD release as well, in both the 5.1 and theatrical mono mixes. From what I've read, it seems they are intact in the English soundtracks on some of the current international Platinum releases.

[superbu]

DisneyChris, on Mar 15 2009, 07:51 PM, said:

It is correct. I have a reissue on cassette of the original sountrack album originally produced in the 1950s and the word is ommited.

But the original soundtrack album was not produced in the 1950s, it was produced over ten years earlier. So the cassette copy you own was taken from a 1950s reissue, not the original soundtrack as presented in 1940. I also own an LP produced in the 1960s that has the line (in fact, all dialogue) from the song omitted.

But my CD, released in 1990 by RCA, says it is taken directly from the original 78rpm shellac discs, which would be the album exactly as released in 1940. Jiminy's line is there in this edition.

[Joseph]

It's not just that 1990 RCA CD release that has the missing lines. I have heard them on several Disney produced releases as well, including the "Best of Disney, Vols 1 and 2" from 1978, and others as well. It's always interesting listening to see if the lines are going to be there or not. It seems when the song is taken from the film soundtrack the lines are left in, and when they're taken from the WDL and DQ source albums the lines are missing.
When I saw the film at the El Capitan in Hollywood a few months ago I was surprised to hear the dialogue missing.

[almandot]

Were these things on the laserdisc version(there was a laserdisc version wasn't there)? Gotta wonder if the only available resource was even just an old VHS copy to get that one line if they'd try to mix it in if they knew it was missing.

[Mike Frezon]

There are unsubstantiated stories making their way around the internet that Disney either has or is going to offer replacement discs with the missing dialogue on their latest home video releases of Pinocchio.

Personally, I don't believe them--only because they haven't yet been heard from any (not even customer service) at Disney. I'm wondering if anyone here has heard anything to this effect?

[Mike Frezon]

I guess my skepticism was well-placed.

It turns out that those who apparently were initiating those reports were simply making things up.

I will never understand why people think doing stuff like that is "fun" (or whatever their motivation might be).

Everyone back to their business. Nothing to see here...

[Mike Frezon]

Finally!

For anyone who is interested...Disney has finally begun it's disc replacement program.

All you need to do is call BVHE Customer Service and let them know you are calling about the audio problem with the Pinocchio blu-ray and they will ship you a mailing label.

You send them the blu-ray disc missing the audio cues and they will send you back the corrected disc. Most people I know have been receiving their discs in about two weeks.

Good luck!